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	<title>Comments on: Drugs as stochasticity in the mind</title>
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	<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/</link>
	<description>watching the world turn.</description>
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		<title>By: tatjna</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-560</link>
		<dc:creator>tatjna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-560</guid>
		<description>Hey Andrew.  Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I don&#039;t get comment notifications on this so only just saw your reply.

I don&#039;t know if you&#039;ll see this as &#039;proof&#039; - but this is a pretty comprehensive study of the effects of cannabinoids on the brain, including behavioural neurotoxicity, neurochemistry, electrophysiological effects, cerebral blood flow studies, positron emission tomography studies, and brain morphology - brain morphology being the one we&#039;re interested in here.

The study is published here: http://www.healthconnect.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubs-drug-cannab2-ch75.htm

However, it&#039;s long, and if you don&#039;t feel like reading the whole thing as I just did, here are the relevant bits.

&quot;A series of studies from the same laboratory (Harper et al, 1977; Myers and Heath, 1979; Heath et al, 1980 discussed below) reported widening of the synaptic cleft, clumping of synaptic vesicles in axon terminals, and an increase in intranuclear inclusions in the septum, hippocampus and amygdala.&quot;

Another study had different results:

&quot;Most recently, Slikker and colleagues (1992) reported the results of their neurohistochemical and electronmicroscopic evaluation of the rhesus monkeys whose dosing regime, behavioural and histochemical data were reported above. They failed to replicate earlier findings: no effects of drug exposure were found on the total area of hippocampus, or any of its subfields; there were no differences in hippocampal volume, neuronal size, number, length or degree of branching of CA3 pyramidal cell dendrites. Nor were there effects on synaptic length or width, but there were trends toward increased synaptic density (the number of synapses per cubic mm), increased soma size, and decreased basilar dendrite number in the CA3 region with marijuana treatment.&quot;

So there you go.  One study says yes, the other says not that but some other synaptic weirdness (which IMO could have a similiar effect to widening in the context of my original comment).  And of course, this was all with rhesus monkeys not people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Andrew.  Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I don&#8217;t get comment notifications on this so only just saw your reply.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ll see this as &#8216;proof&#8217; &#8211; but this is a pretty comprehensive study of the effects of cannabinoids on the brain, including behavioural neurotoxicity, neurochemistry, electrophysiological effects, cerebral blood flow studies, positron emission tomography studies, and brain morphology &#8211; brain morphology being the one we&#8217;re interested in here.</p>
<p>The study is published here: <a href="http://www.healthconnect.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubs-drug-cannab2-ch75.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.healthconnect.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubs-drug-cannab2-ch75.htm</a></p>
<p>However, it&#8217;s long, and if you don&#8217;t feel like reading the whole thing as I just did, here are the relevant bits.</p>
<p>&#8220;A series of studies from the same laboratory (Harper et al, 1977; Myers and Heath, 1979; Heath et al, 1980 discussed below) reported widening of the synaptic cleft, clumping of synaptic vesicles in axon terminals, and an increase in intranuclear inclusions in the septum, hippocampus and amygdala.&#8221;</p>
<p>Another study had different results:</p>
<p>&#8220;Most recently, Slikker and colleagues (1992) reported the results of their neurohistochemical and electronmicroscopic evaluation of the rhesus monkeys whose dosing regime, behavioural and histochemical data were reported above. They failed to replicate earlier findings: no effects of drug exposure were found on the total area of hippocampus, or any of its subfields; there were no differences in hippocampal volume, neuronal size, number, length or degree of branching of CA3 pyramidal cell dendrites. Nor were there effects on synaptic length or width, but there were trends toward increased synaptic density (the number of synapses per cubic mm), increased soma size, and decreased basilar dendrite number in the CA3 region with marijuana treatment.&#8221;</p>
<p>So there you go.  One study says yes, the other says not that but some other synaptic weirdness (which IMO could have a similiar effect to widening in the context of my original comment).  And of course, this was all with rhesus monkeys not people.</p>
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		<title>By: Zeren</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-559</link>
		<dc:creator>Zeren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-559</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m reading it because you know I&#039;m interested in it but I&#039;m lost with it now, starting at the first subheading and second paragraph. I&#039;ll try later again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m reading it because you know I&#8217;m interested in it but I&#8217;m lost with it now, starting at the first subheading and second paragraph. I&#8217;ll try later again.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-558</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-558</guid>
		<description>@Andrew, thanks for the link, the actual book seems to be offline though. Looked interesting however.

@Jon: Yup, the experience of your friend is definitely the kind of thing I&#039;m getting at. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andrew, thanks for the link, the actual book seems to be offline though. Looked interesting however.</p>
<p>@Jon: Yup, the experience of your friend is definitely the kind of thing I&#8217;m getting at. <img src='http://ferrouswheel.me/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jon</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-554</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 05:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-554</guid>
		<description>Interesting post Joel... I know I&#039;ve found... er, &#039;my friend&#039; has found that even if you take drugs for hedonistic reasons, you can often find that the experience gives you new perspectives that stay with you even when you&#039;re sober, and change your life in quite significant ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post Joel&#8230; I know I&#8217;ve found&#8230; er, &#8216;my friend&#8217; has found that even if you take drugs for hedonistic reasons, you can often find that the experience gives you new perspectives that stay with you even when you&#8217;re sober, and change your life in quite significant ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Brown</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-553</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 04:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-553</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d like to see proof of this THC synapse widening.
I also know Joel of what you&#039;re talking about, I&#039;ve gotten &quot;revelations&quot; on drugs that I wasn&#039;t expecting. I often don&#039;t give them too much weight though. Although the link may not work, you should go to tripzine.com/pit/ and read that about the brain and the psychedelic pathways. If you&#039;re anything like me you&#039;ll read it all in one go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to see proof of this THC synapse widening.<br />
I also know Joel of what you&#8217;re talking about, I&#8217;ve gotten &#8220;revelations&#8221; on drugs that I wasn&#8217;t expecting. I often don&#8217;t give them too much weight though. Although the link may not work, you should go to tripzine.com/pit/ and read that about the brain and the psychedelic pathways. If you&#8217;re anything like me you&#8217;ll read it all in one go.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-555</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 03:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-555</guid>
		<description>@Andrew: Yup, I know that not everyone uses drugs in this way, in fact it&#039;s probably a minority really. I think people who just use them as entertainment sometimes have revelations that they don&#039;t expect, and that these can carry over into sober life.

@tatjna: Yup, machine learning has drawn LOTS from biological systems, such as the brain, ant colonies, bird flight/swarm behaviour, evolution. Plus because the machine learning systems can run much quicker (but with many assumptions of course) it allows stuff learnt from machine learning to be applied back to biology.

I also agree that drugs are not necessary for self-improvement or spiritual development, but that they can invoke unexpected experiences that influence the rest of someone&#039;s life.

Re: THC widening synapse gaps... I think this probably would allow new pathways to form easier, but it&#039;d also probably disrupt weak connections, or connections that have just formed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andrew: Yup, I know that not everyone uses drugs in this way, in fact it&#8217;s probably a minority really. I think people who just use them as entertainment sometimes have revelations that they don&#8217;t expect, and that these can carry over into sober life.</p>
<p>@tatjna: Yup, machine learning has drawn LOTS from biological systems, such as the brain, ant colonies, bird flight/swarm behaviour, evolution. Plus because the machine learning systems can run much quicker (but with many assumptions of course) it allows stuff learnt from machine learning to be applied back to biology.</p>
<p>I also agree that drugs are not necessary for self-improvement or spiritual development, but that they can invoke unexpected experiences that influence the rest of someone&#8217;s life.</p>
<p>Re: THC widening synapse gaps&#8230; I think this probably would allow new pathways to form easier, but it&#8217;d also probably disrupt weak connections, or connections that have just formed.</p>
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		<title>By: tatjna</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-556</link>
		<dc:creator>tatjna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-556</guid>
		<description>Interesting.  It always fascinates me how machine learning techniques match so closely to biological genetic selection and breeding techniques - including the introduction of stochasticity (outcrossing) - but machine learning is of course faster and the language is different.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that one of the things that marijuana (thc) apparently does is widen the gap in the synapses - which I&#039;ve always held would lend itself to the formation of new neural pathways.

I also believe that there is no &#039;spiritual development&#039; that can be achieved with drugs, that can&#039;t also be achieved without them, but that some people with no desire to engage in spiritual development have achieved &#039;spiritua&#039;l experiences unexpectedly while on drugs, that have changed their lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting.  It always fascinates me how machine learning techniques match so closely to biological genetic selection and breeding techniques &#8211; including the introduction of stochasticity (outcrossing) &#8211; but machine learning is of course faster and the language is different.</p>
<p>Anyway, what I wanted to say was that one of the things that marijuana (thc) apparently does is widen the gap in the synapses &#8211; which I&#8217;ve always held would lend itself to the formation of new neural pathways.</p>
<p>I also believe that there is no &#8216;spiritual development&#8217; that can be achieved with drugs, that can&#8217;t also be achieved without them, but that some people with no desire to engage in spiritual development have achieved &#8216;spiritua&#8217;l experiences unexpectedly while on drugs, that have changed their lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Brown</title>
		<link>http://ferrouswheel.me/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-557</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 00:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.ferrouswheel.info/2007/09/drugs-as-stochasticity-in-the-mind/#comment-557</guid>
		<description>Some people just like to get fucked up, I think. I know (roughly) how psychedelics work in the brain, and if I ever take them, I&#039;m not looking to gain anything other than entertainment. I think your ideas are interesting. I enjoy expanding my consciousness but I never really intend to glean anything from it, and if you&#039;re also talking about cannabis which can exhibit these properties, well, I don&#039;t do it for anything other than fun.

I&#039;m sure other people are different to me though</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people just like to get fucked up, I think. I know (roughly) how psychedelics work in the brain, and if I ever take them, I&#8217;m not looking to gain anything other than entertainment. I think your ideas are interesting. I enjoy expanding my consciousness but I never really intend to glean anything from it, and if you&#8217;re also talking about cannabis which can exhibit these properties, well, I don&#8217;t do it for anything other than fun.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure other people are different to me though</p>
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